Cybility Savvy
Cybility Savvy
E22 - How can coaching support organisational change?
📝Show notes:
Creating a culture of Cybersecurity involves changing behaviours. This episode dives deep in the subject of how coaching enables sustainable organisational change. Michala Liavaag talks with Amy Tarrant and Sue Noble who have authored a book to give organisations the coaching tools and framework to deliver on the benefits that organisation change initiatives promise.
👉 Cited in this episode:
Book Coaching People through Organizational Change. Listen to the episode to get a 20% discount code: https://bit.ly/Cybility2SNATbook
Amy Tarrant's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amytarrant/
Sue Noble's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-noble-noble-learning-ltd-541a834/
Podcast The rest is politics: https://bit.ly/Cybility2trip
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👍You can also subscribe and share on social media
💬 Contribute to future episodes with your cyber security concerns and questions
🤝Connect with Michala and Cybility Savvy:
✅ LinkedIn ✅ Twitter ✅ Youtube ✅ Instagram
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✍🏾Written and produced by Michala Liavaag
🎦Co-produced and edited by Ana Garner video
🎵Music by CFO Garner
-----
⭐Found this useful? Please rate and review, as it helps reaching more people
👍You can also subscribe and share on social media
💬 Contribute to future episodes with your cyber security concerns and questions
🤝Connect with Michala and Cybility Savvy:
✅ LinkedIn ✅ Twitter ✅ Youtube ✅ Instagram
---
✍🏾Written and produced by Michala Liavaag
🎦Co-produced and edited by Ana Garner video
🎵Music by CFO Garner
(automatic transcription)
00:00:00:13 - 00:00:27:18
Michala Liavaag
hello and welcome to Cybility savvy the show that demystifies cyber security for not-for-profit boards and leaders
I’m your host Michala Liavaag and today we're going to talk with Amy Tarrant and Sue Noble who have authored a book to give organizations the tools and Frameworks to manage change more effectively be sure to listen all the way through for a special discount just in time for Christmas
in a podcast first we're going to treat you to two guests today we're delighted to welcome Amy Tarrant back to the cast with her co-author Sue Noble if you're not listened to Amy's previous episode in which we cover change delivery Insurance among other topics be sure to check it out so welcome both would you like to introduce yourselves Sue
00:00:58:24 - 00:01:31:20
Sue Noble
yeah hi hello everybody I'm really pleased to be here today so I run a business called Noble learning limited which is essentially a coaching a mentoring organization also deliver leadership and leadership development and you know I I love everything about coaching I train others to coach I'm a coach supervisor and I'm also an executive coach so I'm really pleased to be here today to share with you my sort of enthusiasm what coaching is particularly around the subject of change
00:01:32:09 - 00:02:00:03
Amy Tarrant
well thank you Michala for having me back my name's Amy Tarrant this is my second visit to this podcast I've been delivering organizational change for approximately 15 years now but mainly concentrated in the insurance sector that's my passion most recently I led the change delivery team for a London Market insurer I actually have slipped out of full-time work for a year to do a full-time master's degree in law
I'm particularly interested in the legal and Regulatory aspects of insurance and I cut across quite a lot to cyber and data protection which is obviously very relevant for this podcast and Sue and I met actually at the change Management Institute where I set up the southeast chapter and she and I realized that there was definitely an opportunity to marry up skill sets of coaching into the change discipline
00:02:26:16 - 00:02:38:22
Michala Liavaag
that's great thank you so we're on meeting one another then what was it that actually sort of went from meeting another colleague to actually let's write a book together
00:02:40:16 - 00:03:03:06
Sue Noble
so I have something to say about this actually because one of the one of the Delights for me is meeting somebody who is very much in organizational change and project work who who also shared a passion as I did for coaching it was just through some really useful conversations that we had and then it was during lockdown actually and I'd always had this idea about writing I wasn't sure what the angle meant to be and then I contacted Amy and I said do we have a book to write and I'm really pleased to say she said I think we do and that's really where it started from
00:03:16:07 - 00:03:38:19
Amy Tarrant
from my perspective it was coincidental that I think it was probably late 2019 early 2020. I kept on having the same conversation again and again with change practitioners and the word coaching kept on popping up and it was becoming so pervasive that I thought okay I need to look into this where these two disciplines mesh and complement each other and then it just so happened that Sue and I met around similar time as she said Look Down kicked in so we had a little bit of capacity and I didn't want to come out of lockdown without having a big project to show for it so it was perfect and we did some research around what else has been written on these two topics and how they come together because to us it just seems so obvious someone else surely must have gone and done the same thing but they hadn't and I'm sure we'll talk about that a bit more
00:04:04:20 - 00:04:30:10
Michala Liavaag
yeah actually that's going to be one of the next things I sort of picked up on actually about you know you've been having these conversations with change practitioners and kind of like well there is a huge wealth of information out there on coaching and change already so what is it that was missing do you think that made you both sort of think yes we definitely have a book to write here.what was that key thing for you?
00:04:35:01 - 00:04:59:19
Sue Noble
well one of the things I'm behind me there's a whole library of books on coaching and so there are hundreds and hundreds of books that which are aimed at professional coaches or tools and techniques various things about how to coach and and also the same about change there are hundreds of books related to change and how we organizational change and how to take people through change but one of the things we found was that there was nothing really specific which sort of linked some of the challenges of organizational change and how people who weren't familiar with what coaching was or how to use these skills could actually use them and learn about them in a really practical way so that really was our original angle isn't it you know this isn't necessarily for seasoned coaches but it was actually more for people who were really at the hope of managing change in an organization and to help them support people through what is a very difficult time
00:05:39:12 - 00:06:05:13
Amy Tarrant
yeah I would definitely Echo that it's more it's more our primary target for the book is definitely the change practitioners who we Who We Believe can adopt or assimilate the sort of skills of coaching rather than aiming it to coaches who are unlikely to suddenly become change practitioners though of course they may be interested but I think there's so many books as Sue alluded to that are very borderline academic but very theoretical and what we were really really Resolute on doing was was producing something that shows people how so don't just tell me that there's a Synergy between these two disciplines show me through case studies role plays how I could actually do that and deliver that in real life and we're not saying to people you must go and qualify as a coach before you're allowed to do any of these things what we're saying is empowering them today you can go and do this today I think that's really powerful
00:06:37:13 - 00:07:04:23
Sue Noble
absolutely and one of the things which really included and Amy mentioned there about these role role plays and scenarios is actually give people an idea about imagine if you asked these questions what would the response likely to be because what we find is that when change tends to happen is because of stress because of time people can go into the tell you as opposed to ask and so what we really wanted to express is the importance of do more asking you know help people to feel listened to in this conversation instead of being commanded or being told or directed in what that needs to happen because that never works it's never ever worked and it doesn't work in the here and now
00:07:27:10 - 00:07:48:04
Michala Liavaag
actually that relates to a question that came in from one of our listeners actually where they're asking about the book does seem to Advocate a respectful approach to supporting employees to handle change and you shouldn't that approach actually of respect to be part of the way an organization creates and formulates change in the first place?
00:07:48:11 - 00:08:18:20
Sue Noble
yeah and absolutely I mean it's it's I know we have to remember that we're not talking about every single organization who adopts this tell approach but traditionally what we find is that there's the you know the traditional way of managing change but people seem to be forgotten about how they're affected and how they're impacting so so absolutely would be wonderful if all organizations can have that people approach but actually often they don't know how to do it so we're hoping our book helps to share with people about look there's some very simple techniques and some very simple tools which is possible just by sitting down and listening to somebody and hearing what they've got to say and then not fixing it for them but helping them to understand okay what support do you need and how are we going to get to a really good outcome?
00:08:44:12 - 00:09:09:00
Michala Liavaag
that's such a key point about not fixing it for them because certainly I found in my career when I just sort of started using coaching skills I was still in that kind of problem solving wanting to help them fix instead of asking the questions and helping them figure out their sort of way I always say that I provide mentoring Services I'm not a coach but I do use coaching skills Sue could you perhaps just sort of explain the difference for people and then also just to throw in as well whilst I'm at it sometimes I feel it almost borders into counselling and that's obviously a very careful why not to cross so perhaps you could just sort of share something about that for our listeners?
00:09:29:22 - 00:09:57:19
Sue Noble
yeah absolutely and the number of people I when I do one-to-one coaching I ask them what their what they understand coaching to be and often they say well you're going to give me some advice and techniques and actually I'm very quick to say well that isn't really what coaching is so if we look at what mentoring is first I mean what would tend to happen is if you're looking for a mentor you're looking for somebody with the skills and experience to help you get to where you want to get to so it could be a career decision so that person will have experienced and share their knowledge and experience which is very different to what coaching is so as a professional coach the the power is with the person so the wisdom comes from the other person the coach the client the coaching so as a coach my role is to understand where it is that my client wants to get to so there'll be a goal there'll be a future focus and to help them to get to that point by asking questions to help them think of things in a different way a different perspective get them to think about other people in their system if you like but also there's a bit of a past as well I don't just ignore the past a question I often ask is so how has your upbringing shaped the person you are today because it's such a powerful question to ask because we can't ignore that who we are today is also linked to her past and so that's often a question which people aren't expecting and you could argue that all you're now veering into counselling but actually counselling is very different because it is tends to be more past focus it tends to be more psychological tends to be more about past relationships but less about necessarily about the future although it can be so counselling is more psychological no more therapeutic whereas coaching is far more future focused but to be absolutely honest the two tend to merge to a certain extent particularly with the new type of coaching which is coming through now so the other thing about the role of coach and me when I'm working with a client is what's very important is that it's a confidential conversation and it's not about what is important for me but it's very much about what's important for the client so it's that balance between me building Rapport but not actually getting in the way of the conversation and all the questions I ask is in relation to what is going to be helpful for you in order for you to get to where you need to so but This Confidential piece is very important because often people think well you've been being employed by the organization and what you're going to to say to my manager as a result of that?
00:12:29:00 - 00:12:58:23
Michala Liavaag
that's so important one of the services we offer here at liability Consulting is monitoring for organizations which is a slightly different offering to what we do for individuals it's an interesting one because we're helping the individual in terms of you know their career in cyber security and you know they're sort of efficacy in doing their day job but if you say that's a confidential conversation focused on them and what they want at the same time we have the regular briefings with the manager and they're representing the organization and what the organization wants so you have to be very sort of clear and careful about what the mentee has agreed can be said to the manager and one of the things that I've been doing and I'm sure sue the subs EastEnders practice for coaches everywhere is having that sort of contract at the start that sets out you know what's okay what's not the confidentiality Etc
00:13:40:20 - 00:14:11:13
Sue Noble
so this sort of reminds me of a recent course I did for an organization around mentoring skills and the conversation around the importance of Contracting that comes up but it's important it's part of the course when you get the Contracting right things are less likely to fall apart later and one of the things is around what you can can't agree between the mentee and the mentees manager and what happens if the mentee's manager says I've got a bit of a problem with the person that your mentoring ring could you just try and have a conversation about it which isn't on is not acceptable so I always say that the Contracting is absolutely important in the same way as when I'm working with a manager who whose manager has asked me to coach you know their their employee and we have this sort of three-way contract to say cards on the table what is it you want from this person by the end of the sessions because you're sponsoring them and what is it you want clients in terms of which sort of supports that as well so this is it's something for everyone
00:14:49:11 - 00:14:51:13
Michala Liavaag
Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you.
00:14:51:16 - 00:15:14:03
Amy Tarrant
I wanted to pick up on something that you you mentioned in the question that you asked from your other listener with regards to I think it was along the lines of not telling you know when you're coaching people through change because we we want to get them on side don't we we want to get them to collaborate with us and come with us on the journey one of the things that we decided to do with this book was actually include a piece at the end around setting up a long lasting in-house coaching capability because specifically for that point we don't just want people to be coaching for change in an in-flight project and then stopping doing that because it doesn't embed that culture of continuous collaboration communication it sort of makes it very stop start so by actually introducing an in-house capability and that doesn't mean going out and hiring an expensive executive coach that means empowering your own people who may be interested in the developmental side of of of coaching and what that brings to them giving people the capacity in their day to spend some time coaching colleagues across the organization can actually help business to make change less about a scary project and more part of the business as usual and what I would like to see and where more Forward Thinking firms are moving towards is change is no longer referred to as change because we're always going to be doing something that's different that's taking us to the next stage particularly in this day and age of all the challenges that we have so it kind of creates an embedded culture which I think is really really healthy
00:16:33:13 - 00:16:59:19
Michala Liavaag
as you said you know a lot of change in the world at the moment and so embedding change is just the way we do things rather than it being this scary thing is really important and one of the terms that that is used quite a bit is vehicle so v-u-c-a would either of you like to just sort of explain a bit about that for our audience before I sort of launch into my next question
00:17:00:03 - 00:17:27:08
Amy Tarrant
so VUCA being volatility uncertainty complexity and security was coined a long time ago but has been sort of in the vernacular since the 911 attacks and is really around recognizing this Vortex that we now live in of constant constant change and what that does to people and how you can support people through it and that that is not just in the workplace that's also in our personal language as well if you think about the way the world is today it's there's just constant churn we've got we've got War we've got Rising costs of living we've got climate change we've got pandemics we've got what we're told we've got a little bit of a recession on the horizon people have so many challenges and so many things hitting them from Left Right and Centre there's no point Preparing People for change as if it were a once and done effort we need to be supporting people and giving them tools for resilience all the time and that's why I was very passionate about including a chapter on that in the book The Other chapters are very change a very project-centric which is great and really really practical and useful the VUCA chapter is very much okay how can I help people in the round all the time with coaching tools?
00:18:19:16 - 00:19:02:17
Michala Liavaag
thank you yeah that's really really an important point there again one of the biggest things that in the UK we've experienced recently is all of the changes that were brought about by the pandemic certainly as a cyber security professional one of the things that in one way it was sort of scary but at the same time it was wonderful was the sudden move to push people onto remote working onto collaboration platforms and a lot of that happened very quickly so perhaps security wasn't built in but at the same time it changed programs that Securities depended on programming taking years suddenly happened in like six months so perhaps you could sort of say something a little bit about you know how that's affected both of you?
00:19:13:09 - 00:19:57:03
Sue Noble
well certainly from my perspective it was a breath of fresh air because for many years I used to go troll up to London you know and see people face to face or coaching but all of a sudden we could do this amazing technology and I've actually found in some ways it's been more helpful training tends to be you know when you're in person with a group of people then I personally preferred that but actually working one-to-one with somebody online when you're talking about some things which are quite private and they're in their own personal space as opposed to in an office where you're a bit worried about who's walking by who can hear I found some people are able to open up a bit more and so I haven't really found it a problem and certainly from what people have said they are willing to accept it but I guess really the hybrid approach and I'm finding now people are saying how about coming to meet once and then we do the rest on online and that seems to work really well
00:20:21:06 - 00:20:44:16
Amy Tarrant
yeah it was it was interesting the suddenness of of the Move online I'd been in my my new role for a week when lockdown happened and we had to Pivot very very quickly so there were two there were two main things that I would bring out so one was in in the business as usual world I was building a team together with with my boss we were we were creating a change team which meant a lot of recruitment recruitment means onboarding people remotely sending them I.T equipment by Courier which has security issues inherently baked in so for example how do you make sure that laptops are completely wiped if they go missing how do you make sure your data and your IP is completely protected in that scenario which I think RIT team did an amazing job all but also how do you continue to deliver change remotely how do you Corral a team build a team that can deliver change and how does that team then engage with the people that they are working with and who you're asking to change and I I honestly thought a lot of our portfolio would stop for three to six months and it didn't and I was really pleasantly surprised that we would continue to deliver change remotely albeit we had to slightly Shuffle the pack in terms of our priorities which you know is is our job that's what we do
00:21:46:19 - 00:22:10:11
Sue Noble
so what I'm also finding is that I'm starting to coach managers who are now struggling with this I suppose this inconsistency around who should come into the office and who shouldn't so they're trying to build teams where people are quite resistant to come into the office but there aren't any enough there's not enough new policies to actually say you have to come in twice a week and so this ability to be flexible and can cause a few problems so I often coach managers to help them understand how can they adapt and help their teams to understand the impact this is happening by not by them continually working from home when there is a choice now
00:22:32:10 - 00:22:58:05
Michala Liavaag
yeah I think that's a really great point that there's just I I think certainly again personally from my perspective in one respect the pandemic was actually really helpful because all of a sudden it I wasn't just one of these few people who wanted to work from home on a regular basis it was like the world shifted and realized oh we can do this from home quite a lot of us I think it has definitely changed the attitudes of people I agree that managers face A new challenge around sort of balancing the wants of individuals and the need of the organization previously when involved in change I've always found that being able to have that one-to-one face-to-face conversation was you know I was able to influence very effectively and I'm just wondering how you can sort of achieve that same thing remotely or do you find there's a bit of a barrier there?
00:23:39:10 - 00:24:02:10
Amy Tarrant
well from my perspective when you're trying to build relationships with new starters and new joiners if you've interviewed them on Zoom hired them on zoom and you're building that relationship with them on Zoom inevitably it just takes longer and you really have to go out of your way to schedule catch-ups with people because you know you're not going to meet them by the apocryphal water cooler I don't know if anyone actually has a water cooler anymore that takes longer and you have to really put put the time in and but it's really bizarre because when I did eventually go back to the office I'd forgotten who I hadn't met in person because I had actually put the time into to develop that relationship so I thought that was quite interesting although it's shocking how tall some people are so that was interesting but it's also built as I say delivering change with people who you haven't met and building that rapport with people particularly when it comes to things like resistance which we have a big chapter dedicated to in the book and how to overcome resistance without the the ability to get in front of someone and see their body language and build a rapport very challenging and I can imagine coaching would be very challenging as well in that set up
00:24:53:01 - 00:25:15:14
Sue Noble
and if I could and turn this to a training I do as well what I'm uploading some people making this decision not to put their cameras on so interesting because if you work you know if you're in an office you come in in person you're there but people are now making that decision not to put their camera on and that makes it really hard to connect and a lot of the training I do is about connecting with others so we have this really interesting conversation so what I don't want to do is come over as being parental and say put your camera on or don't bother you know but I really want to say is that what we're doing today is about the ability to connect with people and the more we have in our field you know and the camera on just would help that
00:25:38:18 - 00:26:15:15
Michala Liavaag
so so that's a really interesting point the whole camera on camera off thing because I get the view of certainly when you're delivering training it's really hard remotely if people have their cameras off to gauge you know are they getting what you're saying you know just that engagement is really difficult but at the same time I know there's a lot of neurodivergent people who are so grateful to be able to turn off the camera and sort of reduce that sort of stimulation and anxiety
00:26:15:22 - 00:26:24:21
Sue Noble
but also it could be that they don't have good enough bandwidth quite often you have your camera on then you start getting stuttering and problems
00:26:24:21 - 00:26:52:05
Michala Liavaag
so in terms of thinking about obviously I'm a sub security professional we're very involved in change and it's the sort of thing that often gets sort of Forgotten but in terms of you said earlier on about who this book is for and I kind of find myself wondering if it's actually a bit wider of an audience than you've said today there are tools in there that I'm like oh I didn't think about that I could use that and so I just wonder if it's say there's more of an audience who could benefit from this I don't think it has just changed practitioners specifically I'm thinking like senior managers no matter what discipline would benefit from you know because they're involved in change they're responsible for coaching their staff and yeah just your thoughts on that
00:27:23:23 - 00:27:49:05
Sue Noble
yeah yeah I definitely agree with what you're saying there Michala because although the primary audience was always changed practitioners as we call them but actually it is still useful for coaches who are maybe coaching people through change and a lot of coaches quite like tools and techniques and so it might help them to reinvigorate their their memory of these tools or even there might be some new ones in there as well so it's definitely an audience and also students have changed as well they might find this as well hand over to Amy too
00:27:56:02 - 00:28:27:17
Amy Tarrant
no I couldn't agree more and I think where the the target audience comes from a place of you know pragmatism which is when you're writing and marketing a book you need to have a very clear primary secondary and possibly even tertiary target audience so that you know who your marketing and talking to but you're absolutely right from a practical point of view and this is one of my soapbox this is who knows very well is everybody is delivering change whether they think they are or not and if you are particularly as you say Michala if you are a senior manager or any kind of people leader you are going to be delivering change holding people's hands through that journey and they're fantastic skills to have I mean gosh if for most people if you if you're dealing with any kind of any kind of relationship be it personal professional those soft skills will always serve you very very well but I think on the non-coaching side on the chat on on the change to the change delivery side those tools are just they're just good life skills they're just good good a good way to organize yourself so I think there's yeah you're absolutely right and thank you for pointing that out you're very great
00:29:10:11 - 00:29:38:17
Michala Liavaag
thank you glad to hear that you both agree so yeah everyone out there whether you're a trustee executive leadership Senior Management cyber security practitioners whoever you are really there's some great tools and things in this book and as you know it's very sort of common for people to sort of think about it and cyber security people being very sort of technical perhaps not having those people skills and so a book like this can really help sort of develop those I think so as you've said you know we're all involved in change words that we realize it or not and yeah I've mentioned the pandemic as being one of those big changes for being through but the other thing that is just you know you can't ignore it with what's going on in the news is climate change and the recognition that from a Governor's point of view I see there's a move from sort of ESG being about tick boxing rather than actually you know real sustainability actions to help contribute that seems like a really big challenge for you know everybody
00:30:26:03 - 00:30:45:20
Amy Tarrant
yeah I think that's an excellent point and there is we didn't have much space in the book to sort of talk about what are the drivers have changed and one of the you know we talk a lot about technology as a driver for Change and cons er behaviour and pandemics and obviously climate change is right up there as a key drive for Change and if it isn't it should be it's something that I'd like to write a lot more on in particular now that I'm studying ESG within the context of Insurance and financial services in general and there is actually legislation and regulation coming through that will guide organizations as to how they need to start behaving in terms of in Services you rightly say instead of ticking boxes what are the actions and the evidence of those actions you know what what governance do you have in place to to evidence and demonstrate your credentials in in this in this area so if I put it in the insurance context what type of products are you stopping to offer cover for so moving away from carbon intense Industries and moving towards a more sustainable Industries equally on the investment side companies who invest which they all they will do how can you evidence that you're not investing in harmful Industries and and how do you actually know some of the time there's so much that we could say about this
00:31:52:09 - 00:32:20:12
Sue Noble
well as you were talking Amy I was thinking about the potential for you know so when I'm coaching people to be more strategic this is definitely a conversation to be had around and how can we include this conversation within your role as a strategic leader and manager because there will be a requirement for that so it's about helping people to think more widely of their role instead of just thinking of it in terms of I've just got to get the job done but as a strategic leader we have to think about the environment and the the changes in terms of that and the and and the responsibility we all have at that level as well
00:32:31:09 - 00:32:40:23
Michala Liavaag
okay so as we're sort of coming towards the end of our time today what three things have you picked oh Sue is already to go there
00:32:42:22 - 00:33:06:06
Sue Noble
I really struggled with this to be honest but I thought who would I invite to dinner and there's two people came to mind and that one is George Michael all right and the other one is Greg Wallace I think he's amazing he's just so enthusiastic I mean my goodness his love of food as well which I have as well the film I would recommend is or is Pulp Fiction I've watched it three times and I still find something different and a book which I recently read was freaky dancing by Bez from the Happy Mondays oh gosh it was just such fun that hedonistic world and he still survived it
00:33:26:01 - 00:33:49:21
Amy Tarrant
I focused on books and films and and podcasts because that's sort of my thing I I absolutely love aside from our book obviously I love switch by chip and Dan Heath it's a real change staple if you will and the reason I love it is it's very tactile every single example is a whole chapter of a case study and you really get to know this this person and this scenario and you can think you think about how that how that change could really be implemented in your own world and I loved that the film I love is called October Sky and it's about 25 years old it's with a very young Jake Gyllenhaal he's actually based on a real life story of a chap who was very good at physics and ended up working for NASA but the whole journey in between was how he got this rocket to launch basically as a kid as a sort of lay person if you will and it's about product development it's about strategy but on a personal level it's about tenacity never giving up resilience which is why I think it's it's a fantastic film podcast I'm a podcast fiend my favorite is the rest is politics with Rory Stewart and Alistar humble and the reason I like it is I'm so fed up with polarized or you know binary thinking this is one guy from the left one guy from the right and guess what they they agree on about 95 of things so it it just it just warms my heart
00:35:00:05 - 00:35:20:04
Michala Liavaag
I think that's a great shout and I know we're coming to the end but I'm just gonna say that you've sort of raised a really important point there actually that there's an awful lot of that sort of black and white thinking generally and that's obviously one of the things that you have to address through group change and coaching skills now I'm just glad you mentioned it I don't think I've seen it so I'll have to check that out in terms of the October Sky one that is and I'll add my vote for switch as well so what do you wish you'd been able to include in the book but didn't get a chance to. Sue would you like to go?
00:35:39:01 - 00:36:13:02
Sue Noble
yeah I I wish I'd had more opportunity to talk about my own personal experience and I guess really this is the the challenge of co-writing and also being restricted to the number of words we had I'd like to have said more about my personal experience of coaching but also the importance of including an executive space for senior leaders and not necessarily coaching but providing that space where they don't have to work towards the goal but they speak with a professional in a very confidential space and I've started doing that and it works amazing
00:36:16:24 - 00:36:23:06
Michala Liavaag
yeah brilliant how do people actually get involved if they'd like to on that point?
00:36:24:09 - 00:36:55:21
Sue Noble
it's now to the organization and recognizing it and I have one particular client who recognizes the importance of this and so every opportunity I have and sometimes my coaching when my coaching sort of comes to an end and they've got a number of hours left over I say well would it help if you just have these as thinking space the rest of the hours instead of all that specific we have to meet a particular goal and if their manager organization agrees to it and they usually do then that works really well takes the pressure off in some ways
00:36:59:04 - 00:37:06:03
Michala Liavaag
that's great thank you and Amy how about you what would you have liked to include other than the climate change piece?
00:37:06:03 - 00:37:31:11
Amy Tarrant
Well I would have liked to have generally written more about the drivers for change in particular I'm interested in the way that I think the younger generation will drive organizations to behave differently so the younger people are expecting more environmentally friendly products they're eating that you know they're turning away from meat they're turning away from Cosmetics which which harm the environment and that's that's making companies change their behaviour and I don't think we've seen that before whereas specific generation of people has actually driven organizational change to to that degree cons er behaviour is incredibly powerful nowadays it never used to be you used to be you know you get the car that you get and you get the microwave that you get nowadays we're really setting the setting the bar and telling companies what we want and that's what drives change and it used to be that organizations could choose what they wanted to change and when now they're being told and I'd love to do more on that and research more
00:38:15:22 - 00:38:36:08
Michala Liavaag
on that you know that'd be really interesting actually to see what your findings are around that when you do again bringing it back to cyber security for a moment what one piece of advice would you give our listeners out there who are worried about how to embed cyber security as part of the changes in the organization?
00:38:36:17 - 00:38:44:10
Sue Noble
well my piece of advice is never assume it can ever happen to you even if you have an Apple Mac
00:38:46:11 - 00:38:49:04
Michala Liavaag
thank you for that because that is absolutely a common myth
00:38:49:10 - 00:39:07:16
Amy Tarrant
I guess my nugget predictably tracks back to insurance which is make sure you've got the right cover because you don't beat a lot of people ass e cyber cover means that they'll be covered for absolutely everything there are so many sort of exclusions in in cyber Clauses that you really need to understand what you're covered for and what you're not so make sure you've got the right data protection that's the stuff that will cost you deer in a in a lawsuit if you get if you compromise your customers data
00:39:16:15 - 00:39:39:12
Michala Liavaag
yeah that's a a great point Thank you and I know there's quite a lot of changes in terms of what companies are willing to cover and the controls people need to have in place to be able to actually claim so that's probably something that we're going to talk more about on the podcast throughout the year actually yeah where can listeners come and chat to you if they'd like to find out more?
00:39:39:24 - 00:39:50:10
Sue Noble
Well, so contact me through LinkedIn and more than happy to set up a zoom chaps to talk more about coaching and how it could benefit you.
00:39:51:08 - 00:39:53:01
Michala Liavaag
Brilliant. Thank you. And Amy.
00:39:53:01 - 00:40:02:16
I'm a big LinkedIn fan I'm on LinkedIn a lot so come and find me there I'm also on Instagram but I suspect that's less relevant that's just where I look at pictures of dogs
00:40:02:16 - 00:40:11:03
Michala Liavaag
yeah that's great thank you and for people who have not yet got their own copy of this book where would you recommend they get it from?
00:40:11:12 - 00:40:27:13
Sue Noble
well there's two places two main places one is Amazon and the other one is direct from Koganpage and so Koganpage you can get 20 off if you put in Koganpage20 I believe into the when you check out online
00:40:27:23 - 00:40:51:14
Michala Liavaag
brilliant thank you and as I say I haven't finished but at all I've got quite a long way to go but in terms of what I'm reading it's very clear easy to read the tools and techniques you've got on there there's abs absolutely something I swear for managers all over no matter what discipline you work in so it's going to become I think one of those Staples so thank you both for bringing your skills together and sort of identifying this gap and then filling it thank you and thank you for coming and talking to us on Cybility Savvy
00:41:02:03 - 00:41:04:10
Amy Tarrant
Thanks for having us Michala really enjoyed it.
00:41:04:17 - 00:41:05:08
Sue Noble
Yeah, thank you.
00:41:05:08 - 00:41:34:21
Michala Liavaag
if you'd like to get a copy of the book we encourage you to go to Koganpage to purchase your copy where you can get 20 off the price of the book we'd also encourage you to opt for the paperback and ebook bundle so that you can use the electronic copy which is really helpful too and down here you can add the offer code of koganpage20. with an electronic copy you can read it in your web browser or you can download the mobile app and use it on your phone or tablet as you can see the contents cover a wide range around change and coaching and then what's particularly interesting and very useful particularly for reference but the appendices at the end so an appendix a for those who are familiar with the grow coating model I encourage you to have a look through these stages of the emerge model and see how you might use those in your daily coaching skills practice with your staff and I particularly like appendix c as a nice quick reference where you can look up what it is you're actually looking to do and then sue recommends which technique is appropriate for that lots of nuggets of great stuff in here and I think it will become one of the staples in not just change practitioners and coaching but also managers and City Managers generally who are responsible for change
